In this episode of As Grandmother Says, Brinda Guha hosts a conversation with Frank Malloy and Okai Musik.
In this episode of As Grandmother Says, Brinda Guha hosts a conversation with Frank Malloy and Okai Musik.
BRINDA GUHA: Welcome to How People Move People, a podcast about the impact that our words, art, stories, and lives have on each other. Each series' journey unfolds in a sequence of six episodes, and Series 4 is titled “Dida Bole Je”, or “As Grandmother Says”. Thanks for being here.
Welcome to Dida Bole Je, As Grandmother Says on the How People Move People podcast a production of the National Center for choreography Akron. I'm Brinda Guha my pronouns are she and her and I'm a non non-disabled cisgendered cast privileged queer South Asian woman with roots in Bengal and the Jersey Shore. Lenapehoking is the land I occupy today. I make things for a living and I bring together like-minded folks to make things with me.
In this series, choreographers, grief and health workers, musicians, activists and writers will connect with an artist in the same field but of a different generation. They will have conversations with each other, reflecting on stories of their grandmother figures, mentors and guides. Folks who may or may not have had the most profound impact on us, but who always seem to stand in the glory of their truth. Their hypothesis of what's coming, and their reflection on what was and what could have been. In this shared time, these impactful artists will speak on their processes, their understanding of the times that we're living in, and a moment in their lives when they fundamentally change their mind.
Amar dida bole je, listen to what I’m saying first! Then respond. What are your grandmothers telling you now?
As a percussive dancemaker, I find that the one tangible thing that can connect many cultures all over the world is rhythm. When it comes to children, I think about the first sound we move to feeling recognizable, repeatable, and living inside congruent patterns that we express with our little hips and behinds - an experience that almost seems trustworthy, graspable, and loveable akin to our connection to the heartbeat in the womb. The womb that held us as we grew into our bodies and eventually found the air in which sound carries from body to body, and land to land.
In many instances, rhythm is also called upon to lead revolutions - to call people into attention, into line, into formation - to embody solidarity, to dissent upon the rigor of various oppressions, and to announce the arrival of a new day. The cyclical nature of our universal rhythms can create a sense of trust and clear communication that awakens action, that lifts spirits and bodies into one purpose, into one love, into one groove - for all who listen and feel to share together, if they so choose.
Today, we’ll listen in on a conversation between two unbelievably talented humans, who every day, embody the radical spirit of percussive music and dance. Okai Musik and Frank Malloy have been re-creating the heartbeat of our dance floors for decades, and they approach their craft from different entry-points, but share in a community of sound makers who claim the floor as our God and the sky as our call. I know this about these men because I’ve been in rhythmic conversation and spiritual alliance with both of them through two separate contexts. What their hands can do on the edge of animal skin and nature’s surface is nothing short of extraordinary, and they give me and so many others fodder and inspiration to never give up on the dances we need to shift our collective energy into one of profound community impact and change.
Okai says, “I’m a student of all percussion, all the rhythm, from all over the world. What Marcus Garvey tried to do with the red, black and green with the revolution - that’s what I’m trying to do with the music. When it comes to the bigger picture, it’s all about the red, black and green and just trying to connect with people from the African diaspora all over the world.”
Frank says, “My intent as a black man and musician is to elevate the music, space, and those I share my work with. It’s a sacred duty owed to my ancestors and parents.”
And with that, welcome to the episode, with Okai Musik and Frank Malloy.
OKAI MUSIK: Frank, what's going on, brother?
FRANK MALLOY: Nothing much, nothing much. You know, another day as a musician. I haven't played with you many times, but I definitely know of you. And I think the first time we crossed paths musically was at Pregones Theater. I think you were playing with Militeri with Bombazo Dance Company and of course me and my wife have a Harambee Dance Company so I know you got good hands.
OKAI MUSIK: You mentioned Harambee and Bombazo. And at first, I remember Frank playing. And, and as I revisited that moment, I was like, I believe you were playing as well. Were you playing? (Malloy: Yeah) Yes, you were playing as well. And the vision came and I was like, no, no, he was, he was playing too. Yes, so we have shared the stage together. Yes. Yes.
FRANK MALLOY: And that was a great moment. Just kind of like what we're doing now. I remember meeting new faces, seeing different movement, experiencing that movement in a different way because we hadn't done a performance like that with that style of dance. So even hearing what you were doing musically, it was new to me. Not new in terms of just hearing a musician, but new with that creation. And it was definitely a pleasure and honor to have that combination there and create something very great.
OKAI MUSIK: Yeah, thank you for bringing that day up or that performance because I mean, shout out to Militeri and Bombazo Dance Company. She, I've, I’ve been with Bombazo Dance Company for more than 10 years and I've played different roles within that company. But that day, she allowed me to really get into my element as far as really diving into the different parts of the African diaspora because from what I remember, you know, Cynthia, who was an Afro-Peruvian dancer, she taught me some of the Peruvian rhythms on the cajon. So I was playing a little bit of that segue into the master Peruvian drummers that were there. And knowing Haitian rhythms, of course, I did some Haitian rhythms that I'm familiar with. And I did some Afro-Dominicano rhythms for my sister Miriam. And so she, dancers were teaching me rhythms, putting me on to rhythms. You know what I mean?
So I was able to learn and perform these rhythms, you know, that I wasn't so familiar with, but got familiar with them through that performance and that process. And I believe it was my first time seeing Harambe perform, it was my first time seeing the, the Colombian group perform which after that, after that day, I started following them, going to their performances, being in jam sessions with them, and the Capoeira group. You know what, the Capoeira group is the only group that I haven't seen yet after that day, but I am, I've been doing Capoeira for a very long time, so I was very familiar with what they were doing, their songs, the instruments. So like, yeah, I was, I was in my element that day. And I'm glad that you helped me revisit that moment and you were a part of it. You were there. You were there (Malloy laughs). You saw it.
FRANK MALLOY: In a very small world because Mwata Nubian who also plays with Milteri, he used to play with Harambee.
OKAI MUSIK: Mwata? Yes. That’s my brother yo. He's always willing to teach you about something whatever any question I have about the African diaspora, because he's well versed, you know what I mean? So you know Africa South America the Americas, you know, that's one of the first people I go to.
FRANK MALLOY: So how do you migrate all of these musical worlds and all of the people who live in these worlds, you know, in New York?
OKAI MUSIK: How do I…You know, I, I, I guess it just happens. It happens organically. At least I, I, I, I tried to let it happen organically, linking up with people from Colombia or Mexico or Panama. It, it kind of just happens naturally because that’s, that is my intent. That, that's the energy I'm putting into the universe is to learn as many rhythms as I can and try to absorb it and memorize it, you know? A lot of times, you know, you learn a rhythm. If you don't play it, you know, it's gone (Malloy: Yeah. Yeah) until you revisit it again.
And I just find myself traveling to different places, Brazil or you know, any. I embrace Capoeira and then next thing you know, I'm, you know, in Brazil, you know, doing Capoeira. So, you know, the, the, it works. You know what I mean? The universe really works in that way when you're really passionate about something and that's what your goal is and that's what your intent is. Then you take one step forward and, and, and the universe or God meets you halfway. And get you the way you got to go in and, and allows you to meet who you need to meet (Malloy: Yeah). Like people like you, you know what I mean? For real. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty much it.
FRANK MALLOY: Well, I'll, I’ll, I’ll tell you, I don't bounce around in the most positive way. Sometimes you say bounce around, it implies you're all over the place and not as focused. But I used to be very focused going from one project to another. And I. I actually enjoyed it. Now my wife and I are just focused on the dance company. And so playing in a dance company, you know, and that's our number one project, it's a blessing and a curse as a musician. Because a lot of what I play, most of what I play is about the work that the artistic director is kind of creating. So I'm not in these other worlds as much as I would like to be. And it's really created some musical stress because sometimes you get bored of playing the same style, seeing the same faces. And those are beautiful styles and beautiful faces, but it's the same people. And I've been challenged, this is the negative part of it, is when you're not playing with other folks, you're not hearing the new sounds and the new riffs that people are playing, you know.
And as I'm getting older, like I'm 59. And so I'm playing with a lot of young people. And I've had to dig very deep in order to keep up, you know, gone are the days where, you know, you're just an older person, you're an elder and people are like, you know, hey, there's a, there’s a place for you. You really have to have your, your hands together. I wouldn't say the young folks have an approach of no mercy, but you know, when you sit down with the young drummers, you need to be able to play and hold your own and excel when you need to excel.
So I've had to go out of my way to attach myself to specific people, specific situations so I can hear and learn what people are playing. And obviously the first person for me who was playing riffs that I was not able to play was, you know, my son, he’s an incredible percussionist. And that was when I realized, you know, I'm going to have to go back to school.
And it was a strange transition because, you know, you're playing something for, you know, 20, 25 years, you know, 15 years, and you're doing your thing, you know, you're making good money, people are calling you, you know, you feel wanted. And then I remember doing a show with him and he played something that I could not even understand what he was playing. And most of the time I can hear a drummer play a riff and I'm like, Oh wow. that's a wicked riff, you know? I'm, I’m gonna borrow that riff and I'm gonna add my, my own stuff ingredient to it, you know, you get ideas. But what he played, I was like, I can't even borrow that because I don't even understand.
OKAI MUSIK: Yeah, you gotta know where the one is at in order to borrow it.
FRANK MALLOY: Yeah, it sounded like three people were playing when he played the riff. And I realized that, Hey, I'm going to have to get this stuff because this is what they're playing right now. And I'm going to have to understand, I'm going to have to understand not just the riff, but the young folks who are playing these riffs, you know? Because I don't separate the music and the people who are playing the music. So I've been in school keeping up with the young people for a good, good 10 years now.
OKAI MUSIK: We should never stop learning. I, I've always thrived on in telling others we are students and teachers at the same time. And that's funny, you, it sounds like you're becoming more of a student now than, than, than a teacher, man. I totally get it.
I’m doing the opposite of what you're doing as far as trying to like stay focused on one thing. If it's, if it’s an album or if it's Haitian rhythms or if it's West African rhythms. You know, right now it's Haitian rhythms and producing. Those are the two things that I've really found myself going hard with because being of the Haitian diaspora and starting off so late learning the Haitian rhythms because I've, I’ve learned most of my hand percussion skills have come from playing the djembe now, you know what I mean? I'm going back to congas and playing with two congas, learning the Haitian rhythms, how to put those Haitian rhythms on two different congas instead of one conga. So therefore I can have like a solid foundation in one genre, you know what I mean?
So yeah that I find myself trying my best to now like focus on one thing instead of being scattered all over but yeah, as far as yes being a student man, I am always learning man. I'm, I'm on top of the new Hip Hop. Although sometimes I don't like it, but you know what I mean? At least I'm keeping my ear to the street because some of it is cool. A lot of it is like, okay. Ahh I'm gonna put that away, you know, I don't need to store that one but a lot of it, a lot of it I'm like, Yes. The Afro-beat, the Afro-house, the Amapiano, I'm all about it.
And one group that I must say that is keeping me on my toes is Soles of Duende. They keep me on my toes, man. Like, I am going from sevens, to fives, to nines, to numbers that where phrases that own, there's no numbers. It's just remember the phrase. So yeah, that's, those maybe like two or three things that I like, I am focused on because a Soles of Duende is about to get busy. So I'm kind of excited and nervous about the gigs coming up because it's always a learning experience. It's like Soles of Duende is like going back to percussion university. That's what Soles of Duende is.
FRANK MALLOY: Yeah, yeah, and I think, you know we all have a toolbox in our rhythm bag and, you know when you mentioned Soles of Duende, it's the same thing like you know with our dance company and other dance companies that I've worked with and also other choreographers. You come with that toolbox, but everything in that toolbox doesn't apply to that type of situation. And I've always felt that if you choose part of the, the evolution, and it doesn't have to be this way, but part of my evolution was to go from focusing on culture, and that never leaves you, but also focusing on creating new work that comes from a different place, from a different person, a different musical universe.
And that's where even being focused, you know, when I talk to the young folks, I'm like, being focused is a skill. I know what you can do with your hands. You know, you go into someone's rehearsal, they have a requirement, they have a need for your hands. And if you go in and say, Hey, you know, I'm from this culture, I know this, this, this, this, this, and they're like, Hey, I'm doing a piece about a rabbit and a hunter. And you realize that you have to pay attention. Because I know you've been in classes and I've been in classes, you know, playing and the dance teacher is up talking about the work and what he wants the dancers to do. And the drummers are in a totally different space, you know. One advantage that I've, I’ve received from working in a dance company and with all of the choreographers that I work with is that fine tuning, that focused skill allows you to work with many different people. And it also allows you to give what you're supposed to give, the way you're supposed to give it to the person who's at the front of the room, you know.
OKAI MUSIK: One hundred percent. Staying focused is a skill. I agree with you. It’s, I try to go into every situation with an empty mind, like, okay, what is it that you are trying to do? What is your intention with this play or, or performance or whatever it is? What rhythms are you leaning towards? And not trying to, I mean, when, when they allow me to, you know, embellish and put my own onto it, of course I'll do that, but I'm here for whoever hired me, I'm here for you, like, and I am trying to stay focused. I'm not trying to have other conversations going on in my head as you're talking to me, which is a skill. It's, it's hard not to have that voice talking to yourself as someone else is talking to you. Yeah, totally agree with you man.
What other aspects of your life are currently finding its way into your practice? What's giving you life right now?
FRANK MALLOY: Well, you know, I'm 59. We've had our dance company for 30 years. So being able to, you don't think about, at least we didn't think about this in the very beginning, you know, what impact are we going to have with this dance company? But to be able to see people who you've helped, who are now adults, to see my son who's 32, you know, he's married. He's got a kid, you know, our daughter's 20. She's into theater. She's dancing now. You know, just seeing that, you know, we've been on a straight narrow and we've left a wake in the boat that we've been in, you know, and it's always was important for us to make sure that we leave something positive.
OKAI MUSIK: Mmm hmmm
FRANK MALLOY: What are some of the tough moments you have in all of these worlds? It can't just be all beautiful roses and kittens. What are some of your irritating moments?
OKAI MUSIK: What I am not liking about myself right now is conflict of schedule. I don't know why I can't get my calendar together, man. Like I enjoy being an entrepreneur…
FRANK MALLOY: That's a good problem to have though.
OKAI MUSIK: Yo it's a good problem, but I, I just, I don't like disappointing people. When I'm saying yes to something, you know what I mean? Like, yo bro, check your calendar and make sure you can say that yes. You know what I mean? I'm always just like, sounds good. Yeah, let's do that. Forget to put it on my calendar and say yes to something else on the same day, same time. Next thing you know, I'm disappointing somebody. You know what I mean? So I have to get diligent about being an independent artist, having my own business. It's...
FRANK MALLOY: Is it, I'm going to interrupt, is it a disappointment for your landlord? I think most of us do this, not just for the money, but I mean, most of the people that I, I know in New York, I mean, they're in three, four, five, six different projects at any, at any one time. And everybody's rehearsing. So that's another skill that I think was specific to New York that I had to learn was the ability to learn material quickly. Someone gives you five dates to rehearse, you know, and you know, you only can make three of those dates. So those are the three dates that you have to master the material (Musik: Five days of work). Yeah, yeah. And it goes back to that word we were talking about earlier, being focused, is when you are super focused you can go in and disappoint for those two days. Now I'm gonna use your word you can disappoint for those two days that you're not in that rehearsal but the other three days you, you got to bring everything you've got.
OKAI MUSIK: No, yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, I hear you. And, and it's funny because every it always that brings me back to Soles of Duende man, because I don't think I’ve missed any rehearsals, but if I do, you know, you better believe I am whatever videos they put in the chat, I’m trying to catch up on it I’m like I have these videos on loop. You know to me trying to catch up because it, you can easily get lost in the sauce if you are not focused and disciplined about your craft.
Especially me that's juggling so many different things. I block out everything else. And I like to do that with, with other dance ensembles as well. You know what I mean? When I'm there, I am there. Even sometimes when I'm not there, I'm there. Because if your whatever rehearsal was recorded, if you put it up on a chat or Google, whatever doc, I am trying to review that. And that's like, of course, that's just professionalism. You know what I mean? All around is just to be prepared when you're there. And when you're not prepared, be honest about it. So that they can catch you up. Don't be like, Yeah, don't front on it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. And next thing you know, you mess it up. You know what I mean? Nah, don't front. Don't front on it.
But yeah, like, you know, juggling, multitasking, you know what I mean? This new era of multitasking and staying on top of your calendar, your schedule, that is, is a battle for me. You know what I mean? Like staying on top of my expenses, income every month is, is a new thing for me this year. It's my first year of staying on top of, of month to month transactions. I'm always waiting for the end of the year. You know what I mean? Which is like that's not cool because you don't know how much you spent (Malloy: The taxman coming). Yo, you don't know how much you spent on gas. You know what I mean? You might have spent too much on this. You might have spent too much on eating out this, this week. And you need to be on top of it. So you can save better so you can, you know, I mean whatever you, you know If I have goals of saving for whatever it is something big then these, you know, these expenses and income things come into play and I just got to get better of just being an entrepreneur and, and taking care of my taking care of my business man. That's, that’s the challenge for me right now. As far as staying creative and staying focused I. I think I've gotten pretty good with that. You know when I'm there I'm there I'll give you my hundred percent, you know (Malloy: Great. Great) Even if I have any problems issues at home or whatever when I'm there. I'm there you got me.
FRANK MALLOY: You push through. Yeah.
BRINDA GUHA: I’m listening to brother Okai and Frank speak of rhythm, and stress, and meeting the job where it’s at, and I can’t help but consider the process of music-making in our percussive trio, Soles of Duende. Soles of Duende is our all-female, multicultural percussive dance and music trio rooted in the rhythms of Tap, Flamenco and Kathak, and headlined by my dear sisters Amanda Castro, Arielle Rosales and myself. Granddaughters of Celia Rosales Gómez, Yolanda Vega, Eneida Gonzalez, Carmen Castro, these ladies are something else - what they hear and what they say with their feet is nothing short of extraordinary, and their music allows me to find my deepest, most important ideas in this work. Even though we made our Joyce Theater debut this year, had some great press, graced the cover of Dance Magazine, got a touring manager and now planning to travel to 7 cities this year, the accolades for our group’s work is affirming, but the process remains complex, and a constant negotiation. No one sees that part. Do you know how hard it is to hold down a 7-beat rhythm and dance in a 5 while somebody else holds down a 4-count? Listen!!! And on top of that, we are also dancing with our whole bodies. The visual music we make with our bodies adds to the experience of understanding the complex histories of our dance forms. Everything we make is a constant arbitration: are we allowed to break the patterns in this way? What elder gave us the permission to explore this idea and take it out of context? I’d even ask: When did the nomadic bards of north India who traveled when their conditions changed, intersect with the African Americans on the plantations who had their drums taken away by the slave codes? Add on top of that our individual identities as Boricuas, Mexican-Jewish, and Bengali women holding these ideas in our vessels and seeking the permission from our own communities to make these huge decisions.
The truth is, liberation comes in different forms, and I often find that until we give ourselves permission to explore our intersectional pasts, no one else is going to feel inclined to. Like Frank said, what younger drummers can do these days is mind-blowing, and it inspired him to get to work and prepare himself to have intergenerational and musical conversations with his contemporaries - but not without negotiation. Not without hard work. Not without the reminder that simple ideas work too, and to pass that knowledge of patience and sustenance to younger musicians. Also - Soles of Duende works with brother Okai often in our performance work, and being in rhythmic conversation with him on the floor while listening to what decisions he has to weigh right here in this conversation - is more fodder for creativity, and an affirmation that we are all on this journey to figure out how we’re gonna make this music, ok?!
There’s a lot to talk abouuuutttt! Let’s return to the conversation with Frank and Okai.
OKAI MUSIK: I didn't know my dad's parents. I've never met them. I've never even seen a picture of what they look like. I am disconnected to my grandparents on my father's side. Father was very closed. Whatever he went through in Haiti to get here and his life story, he really didn't share that much. You know, I tried, you know, I mean, before, before he passed away, I tried, you know what I mean? And I asked his cousins who are still alive about my dad and what he went through in Haiti but every time I asked him he was just like man it was, it was hard it was just it was hard. I guess maybe it was it was a little easier because he was light-skinned tall handsome guy was able to maneuver in Haiti and get himself to the States but I've never he, he has a sibling who I've never met so I've never met that uncle and I've never met his parents. His dad, my dad's dad went to Cuba and when I went to Cuba, I tried to find him or at least trace down the last name to see if I had some family in Cuba, but nothing as of yet. I'm still on that search. Grandmother, nothing.
I did have a short relationship with my mom's grandmother. I never met my grandfather on my mom's side, but I did meet my grandmother. And one thing that she really wanted to see before she passed away, she's like, before I die in Creole, in Haitian Creole. She's like, before I die, I want to see you get married and I want you to treat her good. And that's all she wanted. She didn't get to see me get married, but I believe it was like maybe a year after she passed away, a year or two after she passed away, I got married and, and, you know, I shouted her out. She's on my, she's on my altar. And I'm like, grandma, you see, I got married and like, I'm doing my best as a, as a, as a husband and as a dad. So I feel like she's always like, looking at me like, yes, you know what I'm saying? Go ahead, go ahead. Do your thing. You know what I mean? Like, you're doing it, you're doing it. But that was the only like little message or life lesson that I got from one of my grandparents. Out of four, I had a relationship with one of them at least, you know, I thank God for that. But yeah, how were you, how was your relationship with your grandparents, Frank?
FRANK MALLOY: You know, I never met my grandmother. She was a full-blooded Cherokee Indian (Music: Wow). And my grandfather, I never met him as well, but he was Frank Welter Malloy Senior. My father was Junior, I'm the third, and Frank is the fourth. I've always felt so connected to my grandmother, even though I never met her. Because my father would talk about her all the time. You know, she was paralyzed from the waist down and her name was Maggie Bythewood. But the English people changed her name to Maggie Blythwood, but it's actually Maggie Bythewood. And my father had remarried and he named my half-sister after my grandmother. So I felt the connection and my father would talk about her. I mean, you know, she's paralyzed from the waist down, but he talked about her like she was superhuman. And that was something that I always feel like she's here. You know, it's almost like reading about, you know, a comic book character. You've never met that person, but you see all of the good work that they've done, you know. I was like, you know, there's my father, there's my uncle, there's my aunt, you know. Now on my mother's side, I knew my grandfather very well because he built the church that I used to go to when I was a (Musik: Okay. Pastor?) Huh?
OKAI MUSIK: Was he a pastor or he just into construction or?
FRANK MALLOY: No, he built a church, his church, and he was a pastor of that church (Musik: Wow!). And, you know, I don't go to church anymore, but, you know, that's where I went to church. And my mother actually still goes to that church. That's why she won't move from Moncks Corner, South Carolina, because her father and everybody was there. And I did meet that grandmother, but she passed when I was a little kid, you know. So all of those folks are very important. You know I have their names. My father did the family tree. I have their names. I know all of the children. But my father and mother really, my father passed away, but they were my rock. I would have to say I've leaned on them a lot, particularly my mother, even going into the Peace Corps, just about everything that I've ever attempted my mother has been a cheerleader for me.
She's always said, go for it. She's never told me that there's something that I can't do, I can't accomplish.
And so even the world that we live in, she knows how angry that I used to be. And she's just the opposite because she had to be the opposite, just keep her head down in order to survive. And so that's still, it's almost like that's in her DNA. Sometimes I'll say something that by today's standards would just be a light criticism, but she'll see it as some grand, a grand statement. And I have to talk to her about it. And I say you know…but I really appreciate her point of view and how she lives in the world. I see the trauma there, but I also see the wisdom and I see the strength just like my other grandmother, the ability to just keep going, keep going, keep going. And I'm a product of that as well as my other three sisters. So I'm grateful for all of them.
FRANK MALLOY: So how do you migrate the, the world of cultural dance? Where knowing that rhythm, knowing that movement is kind of crucial. Not a choreographer who's just creating you know something different. But you go into a space and people are saying, hey, this is a Haitian rhythm. This is how it is. This is how the movement of the dance is.
OKAI MUSIK: I think that that that part comes with experience, dealing with those situations more than once and possibly failing at it more than one time and then you learn. Like if you when you go into a situation and it's like Yo this is West African and you got to do it this way. Do you know what I mean? Like just stick to your part. You know what I mean? Don't embellish. This is the part that we need you to play and this is and, and being okay with that, holding that one rhythm. You know what I mean? That holding that one rhythm might be boring, might be, it might be easy, but that's what you're here to do. So you do it and, and that's hard sometimes you know what I mean? Because you want to like the person next to you might be flarin’ and you're like, Oh snap I want to get a little somethin’ too. No, no, that’s not…that's not what you're here for. That takes a little time. It takes a little time.
But, Soles of Duende allows me to get a little bit, you know, they, they, they have different structures. They, a lot of times they come in with a choreography, they'd be like, Yo, this is what we want, this is what we need. You know, we want you to mark this spot, this spot when we do this more arm movement or this leg movement. But sometimes it's like, Yo, this is the part where we just need you to, you know, whatever, however way you want to interpret that part, go ahead. And I'm like, Okay, I got three instruments here. Let me, how am I going to, you know what I mean, accent, whatever they're doing. But yeah, those are the two different worlds.
OKAI MUSIK: I am still trying to master skill, you know, practicing the paradiddles and all that stuff but I, my next level is how, yes, I am a percussionist, musicians, we are healing people when we play. How can we do that intentionally, like on purpose? Like if somebody has a broken leg, like, and I go play for that broken leg to get that blood flowing through that leg, how can I, you know what I mean? Like how can I do that for real, for real? And so that's what I've only read maybe one or two books on how drums have, you know, the healing powers. We've known this for hundreds and hundreds of years shamans and community leaders have been doing this for hundreds of years, but now in the past 10, I would say 15, 20 years, scientists are proving it and they're showing, you know what I mean? How drums, listening to drums and playing the drum is healing. This is how I'm contributing towards people, towards these social causes. Towards my people who like where the health is a big thing.
BRINDA GUHA: “Art for art’s sake” was a motto in our home for a long time. I think previous generations had a certain liberty with that saying. I struggle with it, if I’m honest. Artists have always been an important prong of the activism tool, with their purpose being to expand the human imagination and process the emotionality of a particular moment in history. I know that dance and music has always played a pivotal role in social justice - so hearing “art for art’s sake” sort of felt like a cop-out to me. Like, dance about a flower because a flower is beautiful? When people are dying and we need to organize? When we should be telling stories of the unheard? How do we do that in good consciousness?
And yet, and roll with me here, if the powers that be don’t let us sow the earth, treat the soil, plant the seeds and enjoy our flowers, then dancing about a flower could actually serve its intended purpose: to remind us of our humanity. There’s a reason my Didu, or maternal grandmother, loved her bedroom facing the garden, and my Thamma, or paternal grandmother, sat on the balcony overlooking her garden to read every evening. There’s a reason why my father in law, Richard, would come home from work and go straight to his garden every day, tending to his lilacs and peonies. There’s a reason people surround themselves with the flowers they do have to get through their days, and there’s certainly a reason people want flowers around them in their death. And so, if we danced about one once in a while, would it be so bad? Another negotiation, another decision to make in our artmaking, I suppose. And I guess…we need all of it, right?: war dances and flower dances, marching music and free music, collective rhythm and layered rhythm. It all matters.
Didu and Thamma, I hope you’re still reading your books by the garden. I hope you’ve met Richard by now, who also loves reading by his garden. I know you three would really hit it off up there. In the meantime, your granddaughter and daughter will keep dancing with fire and earth beneath us, and have more conversations about what we should dance about next.
FRANK MALLOY: So let me ask you this though. How are you migrating these times? Now you may see it as rosy times or you may see it as difficult times. I mean, you just share that with me. It's like, you know, with, you know, Trump, George Floyd. Even what's going on in, you know, with Israel and Gaza. How do you plug your musicianship? And this is, if you do that, how do you plug that into all of the things that are happening in the world? Or do you just block it out and say, music is my escape and I'm good that way?
OKAI MUSIK: Well, what I've been doing to show my solidarity, I am showing solidarity with Rafah, Palestine. And the way I do that is through social media. I'm not gonna lie, I haven't had time to hit the streets as far as the protest and all that stuff at the colleges. But I commend those students. I will say that out loud. I've said it on radio stations, whatever, interviews. You know what I mean? Keep going with that revolutionary young spirit, students. Keep doing it, man, because, you know, a lot of us don't have time to do it or, you know what I mean? I don't know what it is, but whatever it is, if I can say something or do something to inspire you guys to keep doing what y 'all doing, do it. On social media, I am, if I'll do like a drum video, I'll do a drum video with my Palestinian scarf. You'll see captions, you know what I mean? Sending my love to the people of Palestine because it's not only going on in Palestine, it's going on in the Congo, it's going on in Sudan, Haiti, my backyard. I'm, I’m experiencing it firsthand with so much of the Haitian diaspora leaving Haiti, coming here. I'm dealing with it at home, you know what I mean?
So, and so all of that said, I am trying to show solidarity with the movement that is going on. And I use my artistry, my drumming. Like I'll play a rhythm and dedicate that rhythm to the people of Palestine, the people who have passed away in, in Palestine. So that's how I try to contribute. And I do hope to join my peoples during a march, because I used to be a usually do, you know what I mean? If I'm a drum out there, if somebody invites me that I know I'm out, you know what I mean? Hitting the streets, chanting, playing, donating my time that way.
Another major thing for me right now is health. You know what I mean? A lot of Black and Brown men, we don't, we, we take it seriously now, but we come from a generation that was just work, work, work, work, work, work, save money. You know, build for your family, you know what I mean? Build for the family, don't, whatever about the health. But now health is a big concern. Now that we have a little leisure, you know what I mean? To think about our health and we don't have to work so hard. I mean, we still gotta work hard, but that meant that the health and the mental health is more important than anything else.
FRANK MALLOY: I found that migrating the social issues and all of this stuff, you know, from, you know, even my mother, father, and even me, you know, my son, you know, our daughter who's 20, it's, it’s challenging, you know, because even having a dance company, sometimes you want to rehearse, but something has happened in the world that is upsetting to a lot of your company members. And it is very difficult to just dive right into the music and dance. I mean, you've, you’ve put out money for a rehearsal space and you end up talking and trying to process, you know, all these emotions and feelings and trauma, you know, that people are experiencing. And I think it's important, at least for me to be a musician who can play, who can handle the nuts and bolts of the instrument or the project. But also to have something to say musically about the world that's happening, you know, in real time, you know to create work about it.
You know to my wife's artistic director. And sometimes she'll make a complete left turn in the work based on what's happening in the world, you know, and then we're working on something new. In addition, I think it's important to share with people who are coming into at least my universe and similar universes that sometimes this is just my feeling, sometimes the nuts and bolts of the music and the movement is just not enough.
Sometimes you have to understand and know the people who are playing that music. You have to understand the mindset of the people who are playing that music, particularly folks who are not people of, of color, white people or whatever. You know, they come into the community, they give their heart and soul to the project. They respect the culture. And there's a good feeling, you know. You were talking about sometimes you're feeling so good, you lose focus a little bit and then you're, you’re making a left turn and sometimes the lead drummer has to bring you back to reality. But I think it's very important to have honest conversation with folks who are not dealing with the difficulties that people of color face. That it's just not fun times all of the times, you know. It's not just experiencing a culture, an exotic culture and saying that's cute, you know, I really like that. But also getting to know the people who are playing the music, you know.
Our dance company, we do a lot of private performances, you know, private schools. And, you know, I get a call from a principal or some PTA person and they'll say, hey, you know what, we'd like your company to come to this school. They really need to know the culture. They need to be exposed to the culture. So when I hear that somebody is using a 30-minute performance or one hour performance as a way to expose their kids, I have to decide how much do I want to talk about this issue? You know, the principal just wants me to come in and just have fun and have the kids, you know, just leave there excited and they are excited.
Sometimes I feel I'm not being honest with certain topics and it's the right balance. You have to perform, you want to be compensated fairly, but, you know, it's not a circus. It's not just people showing up in costumes and somebody saying, hey, you know what? We have fulfilled our cultural obligation for this year. You know, we're good. So I think there has to be honest discussion. I do more of it now, not the angry way that my father used to do and not the angry way that I used to do, you know, a while ago. And I used to be very angry. But I, I have to, I have to get those conversations in somehow. You know, you just can't just show up and have, have fun, and call it a day, just get you a little money and move on. So how do you migrate that?
OKAI MUSIK: Man, that's a hard one. I, I must say sometimes I will conform to what they are paying me for. This example. You, you want a Haitian drummer and a Haitian singer to come in and sing some folk songs, but don't mention Voodoo, don't, don’t say anything, where it's like, Uhhh you know what I mean? Like that's what bugs me with Haitians. They'll claim the revolution. They'll claim, Yo, we first Black Republic, da da da da. But they won't claim like the process of how it happened. Which Vodun was like, is the, it's a part of the fabric, the root of how it happened.
FRANK MALLOY: Yeah, but that's a scary story.
OKAI MUSIK: It's a scary story, but you know, like the colonial mindset, Christianity, all that, you know what I mean? It's like you, how are we going to claim this but not claim that? How you want me to do traditional drumming where and it stems from this but not talk about that? It's like and, and I find myself like all right you know what I'm just going, I'm just going drum and sing, you know what I mean, have her sing one or two songs and just be out where really you know what I mean like you, you want to tell them about you want to have the it, maybe not on stage but back in backstage you want to have that conversation like, guys, you know what I mean? Like this is what it really is. You know what I mean? Like we can't claim this part and not claim that part. We can't say you love the country and love the culture, the dance where a lot of that stuff is rooted in the Vodun culture.
The Vodun culture has been able to preserve a lot of the African culture that all these African nations that came over we've been able to You know what I mean to hold on to some of that. That's a beautiful thing which, within Vodun. Like let's talk about this. This is a beautiful thing. They don't want it. They don't like nah, man this is a, a Christian church, but we still want some drumming and like you know, so that's like aaaah, you know what I mean? You know, I find myself doing both. You know what I mean? Sometimes I do talk about Vodun and like I tell them like every spiritual belief in the world, it depends on the person who is using it. There are bad Christians, there are good Christians, there are good Catholics, there are bad Catholics, there are bad Vodun practitioners, that they're a good Vodun. You know what I mean? And I'll give them examples. And a lot of times they'll be like, Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? Like, because those Catholic, you know, we can give, we can give bad examples about the Catholic church easy. You know what I mean? That's, that's a no brainer. But yeah, that's, it's hard navigating that world, and the Haitian world specifically because of Vodun and the way Haitian, a lot of Haitians see that spiritual belief. You know what I mean? But it's getting much better. I must say it's better now than ever before, but it's a hard thing to navigate.
OKAI MUSIK: Two questions. Have you, have you been asked to play outside of the West African world? And how, and if you have, how do you navigate that? Because you're, you're, you're rooted into the West African, but you're still a percussionist. So therefore if they ask you to play congas or something else, you will be able to do that. But it's in a different, it's in a different world, different culture. So how does that work for you?
FRANK MALLOY: I've never considered myself rooted in West African percussion.
OKAI MUSIK: Okay.
FRANK MALLOY: Yeah. Even our dance company, it's a Black dance company. That's what I tell people. Now we can do work from West Africa. But we've had the belief, and we're driven by this belief that we're Black folks who are playing these instruments and moving our bodies the way we're moving our bodies. So for me, our dance company and those drums and everything that we're doing is a revolutionary act.
And I'm going to explain, you know, I'm going to go back to my college years. I, I actually joined the Peace Corps right out of college. And I went over to live in Ghana, West Africa for two and a half years. That's how I even really got hooked on West African music and dance. And the funny part of this story is that that journey was actually an escape for me. When I was going, I was not interested in West African music and dance. I just didn't want to go into what I was describing back then as corporate slavery.
So my senior year, I had two internships and I was like, I, I can't do this. I'm not ready to get a traditional job. And I saw a commercial for the Peace Corps and it says, Hey, the toughest job you'll ever love. And I was like, boom, that's it. That will be the move I can make where nobody would call me a bum. Nobody's going to say, Oh you wasted your college education, you know? People saw that as an honorable thing. And I found everything that I'm doing right now while I was in the Peace Corps in West Africa.
And when you think of running away from something, and actually finding what it is you're supposed to do. You know I was like, Wow, this is an incredible journey. And prior to that, I'm just gonna share, I've always been somewhat angry at how the world operates. When I was younger and, and even now. You know, I have a more comprehensive understanding of why things operate. But in the beginning, it was just raw dislike of the treatment of Black folks, you know, and specifically my mother and father. My father was a World War II veteran. He came back from the war, you know, he couldn't get a cup of coffee in a diner. You know, he passed when he was 81, you know, my mother, she's 88 now and, you know, all of the stuff that she went through has been passed on to me. I've experienced these things in a different way. But the anger and resentment came about because, you know, parents talk about their experiences while you're growing up, you know?
And this is something I'm embarrassed to say, but I've shared this with people. My father actually used the word cracker so much. And I grew up in South Carolina, then we moved to New York. We went to New York for a good 27 years. But my father used the word cracker so much when I was younger. I did not know that was a bad word. I thought it was just a, a happy word. It was always, Hey, you know, these crackers, Hey, you know. And when I found out it was, I mean, I see you smiling there, but when I found out that it was a bad word, I was like, Oh my God, this is a, I, I really saw how angry and resentful he was. You know, having spent almost a third of his life with my mother, the same as a second class citizen. So when we went to, when I went to Ghana, I went with that mindset that I'm getting away from the stuff here. I found my calling there. And even when I came back, I was like, I want to create something that nobody can take from me. I want to create an entity that is ours, that I could share with our people. And that's why I say it's a revolutionary act.
Now, I'm not anti-cultural work if someone says, Hey, this rhythm is from Guinea, you know, this is what you need to do. This is how you need to do it. But my whole life is based here. My experiences is based here. So there is no African that can really teach me about the Black experience here, you know. And, you know, I don't have the anger that I used to have. That's one of the things I had to transition away from. And the gift of being a musician, is I was able to work with so many other people from all over the world. And then I realized that, you know, you can have the most deepest relationships with individuals, you know, and everything doesn't have to be deep all the time. I don't have to be a warrior, you know, from morning until night. That I can have beautiful moments with other folks.
I'm just going to throw this in. I remember during the pandemic and you remember this as well. It was almost like somebody counted down from three, three, two, one, everything stops. And so, I mean, within a matter of days, I realized that my whole life has been conversations about dance and music, responding to performers and drummers. The good, the bad and the ugly doing performances, showing up to rehearsals, canceling rehearsals, doing extra rehearsals. And to not have that just overnight. I was actually lost, you know, close to a deep depression. Cause I was like, no one's calling. There's no conversation about anything. There's no gig to be booked, you know? Who am I? You know who am I when the music stops and the dance stops? And I was like, this is, this is who I am. So I had to really realize that I've got to add some other things to my world. You know that so much time and energy had gone over here. And when it was all gone, I was there just kind of empty, you know? And now, you know, my wife and I, we've been able to add different routines. We see the flowers differently. We see the relationships differently. So we have to spend a lot of time filling up the other cup.
BRINDA GUHA: And to think, these two never really talked to each other before this moment. What a gift to be a fly on this wall. If you listen closely, you might be able to hear what their grandmothers are saying now.
OKAI MUSIK: Dida bole je, a happy wife is a happy life.
FRANK MALLOY: Dida bole je, just do whatever it is you want to do.
BRINDA GUHA: How People Move People, is brought to you by The National Center of Choreography at The University of Akron, or NCCAkron. This podcast is produced by Jennifer Edwards, Associate production by Lisa Niedermeyer, and editing by James Sleeman. How People Move People theme music by Ellis Rovin, and As Grandmother Says theme music by Roopa Mahadevan. Transcription is by Arushi Signh, and cover art is by Micah Kraus.
A profound thanks to this episode’s incredible duo, Okai Music and Frank Malloy, for their generosity of spirit in this conversation. To be invited into their world of music and culture, and to meet their queen grandmother figures is so important to me, and I hope for you, too. Gratitude to Anjali Roychowdhury and Bani Guha, my grandmothers. And a huge thank you to the cohort of creatives I brought together that held me accountable in this curatorial vision, including: Eva Yaa Asantewaa, Farah Yasmeen Shaikh, Barkha Patel, Sydnie Mosley, Stacie Webster, Candace Thompson-Zachery and Christy Bolingbroke.
Special thanks to The John S. and James L. Knight Foundation for their continued support of NCCAkron programming. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and encourage you to subscribe on all your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for How People Move People.
Dida bole je…Free every person in the world fighting their oppressors, and listening closely for their grandmothers, too.