How People Move People: Back and Forth host Cara Hagan and mother-daughter team, Tiffany Christian and Rayna Christian talk about the role of art, creativity, self-expression in being and raising black girls.
How People Move People: Back and Forth host Cara Hagan and mother-daughter team, Tiffany Christian and Rayna Christian talk about the role of art, creativity, self-expression in being and raising black girls.
INTRO: Welcome to How People Move People, a podcast about the impact that our words, art, stories, and lives have on each other. Each series' journey unfolds in a sequence of six episodes. The first series titled ‘Back and Forth’ is hosted by Cara Hagan, a New York City-based choreographer, professor, and mother who explores the influence of pop culture on the lives of Black girls, from the 1990s to today. Guests range from poets and thought-leaders to mom-and-daughter teams, to an original Fly Girl from the Wayans Brothers hit ‘90s TV show, “In Living Color.”
CARA HAGAN: Hello friends, and welcome to Back and Forth, a podcast about pop culture and the kinetic lives of Black girls. If you joined us for the first episode of the series, you’ll remember that I spoke to author and scholar Dr. Damaris B. Hill about her book, Breath Better Spent: Living Black Girlhood. The book is a collection of poetry and prose that journeys through the author’s experience of girlhood.
Since that interview, I have been contemplating how children and young adults receive and internalize feedback from culture. As both a parent and an educator, I am cognizant of the role my presence in the lives of young people plays in their development and their perceptions of themselves and the world. When it comes to my daughter especially, who is only three at the time of this recording, I find myself wondering what kinds of messages she’ll be internalizing when she’s older. What messages is she internalizing now? And what is my role in helping her navigate the information she encounters, while also allowing her to have agency in what she chooses to watch, listen to, read, wear, and create? To help me answer these questions, I spoke with a mother and daughter. Rayna Christian is 16 years old, an artist, and an aspiring medical professional. Rayna is also on the spectrum. Tiffany Christian is Rayna’s mom, a teacher, and a lover of the arts.
So, this is a question for both of you. You can both answer however you like. And I want to know what you grew up listening to, watching, reading and how those things have influenced your way in the world from the way you dress to the way you dance and anything in between? Who wants to go first?
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: I'll go first. I grew up listening to everything. We had a very eclectic music choice in our house. We listened to gospel music, we listened to pop music, we listened to country music, we listened to classical music, we listened to some of everything, because we just enjoyed good music. Um the thing was my TV watching habits, partially because I grew up in a time where there was no cable, so we had to be patient. So, you watched what was on. So, it might have been Good Times,it might have been Lawrence Welk. But I figured out a way to enjoy it, because that is what was in front of me, and I think it did help me be more well-rounded, in my taste. How it influenced me — I was never a trendy kid and I'm still not the trendy person. Um so it definitely did not influence how I moved, how I danced. I was the clumsy kid afraid to dance. So, if anything, maybe it made me feel less adequate that I couldn't be like the people I saw (Hagan: Hmm). I did not live in an environment that encouraged creativity, and that kind of self-expression. Dance was something to be perfected and performed, (Hagan: Yeah) and not a mode of expression. So, I did not dance much because I was not very good at it (Hagan: Mmm). Um in terms of how I dressed, we were economically limited. So, I saw those things but I knew the reality of our situation, so I didn't seek to emulate it. I just kind of embraced what was at my fingertips and made the best of it. Um so I did not get that deep into fashion, and those types of trends because they just weren't economically accessible. I saw them, I understood them, but they were things that lived in the television and not in my real world.
CARA HAGAN: Mmm yeah, what about you Rayna?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: Um the only things I really remember growing up watching is um Doctor Who, Princess and the Frog and Law and Order SVU. Uh they didn't really influence me much except for Princess and the Frog because it was my favorite movie, and that made me really want to be a chef. And with music, I mostly just listened to the soundtrack of Big River and to VeggieTales ‘cause I couldn't control the music. But for books I read mostly anything I thought was interesting, including a lot of stuff I probably shouldn't have read because um at the school I went to – Hardin Park – they have this system where if the book had a red dot on it you couldn't read it if you were in like the elementary school level. But I did anyway. And I had a bunch of nightmares because I would read a lot of horror novels that weren't meant for elementary schoolers. But all in all, they were really good books, so I don't really regret it.
CARA HAGAN: Wow. Great. I mean, I love horror too. So, I'm there with you. So, in terms of cues that you've taken from media, about how you should perform girlhood or womanhood, what cues have you picked up on? And do you agree with all of those cues? And both of you can answer this question.
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: Um, I don't think media has really influenced me on how I'm supposed to be a girl. I just don't like change. So, I kind of just be doing whatever like, was going on at the time. Like it's like, oh, braid your kid's hair. It'd be like, Okay, I don't care [laughter]. So…
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: I tried to raise girls that were very comfortable being themselves um and Rayna when faced with popular culture choices, versus her own choice—choices was very fond of saying, “but I'm still awesome.” But I'm still awesome. So, she had a very strong sense of self. And we often used media as a point of comparison, as a launching point for discussions um about why that didn't necessarily make sense in our lives or how that behavior was not the only behavior or the only option. How certain behaviors weren't necessarily productive. So, I think a lot of times we use media as a counter example, as opposed to something to emulate in our discussions as a family.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah. And now I'm gonna let a little cat out of the bag here, because all of your children are incredibly creative people. And you mentioned earlier on in our conversation, that you felt like you couldn't take part in certain pieces of popular culture because you couldn't dance, because you didn't feel like you could emote, the way that folks were emoting when you saw them on television, for example. Can you talk a little bit more about how you fostered that creativity within your entire family?
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: I always admired and and wanted to be creative. Once I became an adult, and probably in college was when the transition started, I got a deeper understanding of what I produced was of quality because I produced it. And I started to value what I created for the sake of the creativity. So, by the time I started having children, I knew that that was just an important part of self-expression that I wanted them to really enjoy and embrace. Part of it was because I was raised by my grandparents, who are children of the Depression, and they very much were focused on the practical, how can you get a job and make money, and we didn't have time for other things. I wanted to make time for the creative in my kid's life, that was very important. So, we prioritized it. They needed an activity and an instrument. And voice was an instrument. So, they did dance, they tried different instruments. Um we—road trips were karaoke time, just because it was fun, and I wanted them to enjoy all those things that came to me much later in life.
CARA HAGAN: Hmm and so Rayna having your parents – both your mom and your dad – as huge supporters of creativity and self-expression growing up, how do you think that that prepared you for the adulthood that's coming for you very soon?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: Um, I've well, I've tried a lot of different things like um I've done dance, I've tried different instruments, I've done art, I've tried jewelry-making, I tried different types of jewelry-making. So, I just made me sort of a well-rounded person. So, and also, like I've had support when I kind of was thinking about what I wanted to do. Like, when I really wanted to be a chef, mostly because of Princess and the Frog, and wanting to be an orthopedic surgeon, and now wanting to go into biochemistry, I've had support for that.
CARA HAGAN: Amazing. So, tell me, what aspects of current media, television, social media, etc., do you think has been most damaging to young girls like yourself?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: I would say mostly, like social media in the sense that um like cable’s kind of fallen out of fashion. But like um in other individuals, like who you look up to who are adults, kind of like uh clarify what is socially acceptable. And like, there's a lot of good things on social media, like uh helping with self-expression, uh discovering who you are as a person. But also, because social media is, like it's non-regulated, anyone can say anything and like um people like Andrew Tate, or like pickup artists, like their whole thing is demeaning women, but because they're looked up to by like younger boys, that can like be spread to how uh younger girls feel about themselves from how others say they should feel about themselves.
CARA HAGAN: Mmm and as a parent, what are some of the challenges Tiffany, of making sure that all of your children are aware of some of these pitfalls of the spaces and how to navigate these spaces, especially in light of things like cyberbullying, for example?
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: It's hard. Um one thing and I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing is that we haven't been extremely limiting on what they access. I mean, it needs to be age appropriate, you know. We don't have seven-year-olds watching pornography that is not appropriate. But we want to teach them how to filter for themselves and make a decisions about what is appropriate for them, and what's not appropriate, what's feeding them, and what's take the—detracting from their lives. So, we have a lot of conversations about decisions, and why you should choose to watch something or why you should choose to change the channel. My kids are unusual in that regard because they would be fairly young and something would be on and then we—Mommy, I don't think this is appropriate, we should probably change the channel. What we wanted to encourage them to develop those lines for themselves, and act accordingly. Because if I always made the decisions for them, they would never learn how to make them. So, I really wanted to empower them to understand their values, and then make those decisions. And that response— you get more and more that responsibility as you get older. But even when they were younger, we started out with as much as they were able to handle, letting them learn how to make those choices, and discussing why they were good or bad choices so that they could be prepared for adulthood.
CARA HAGAN: Hmm, beautiful. And so, Rayna, how have you felt empowered through that process with your family, of being able to be exposed to things but also being able to talk about it and make informed decisions?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: Um, well, kind of because I've always been able to, like, choose what to watch, I'm pretty good at knowing my limits when it comes up, like what's what I like, will watch and be like, Man, this is a cool thing, what I can watch and be like, oh, this, I will feel bad if I watch this, I don't want to watch this. Like, um uh because I really like horror, I like I really like gore and stuff. But I'm also good at knowing oh, this movie is way too gory. It's way too graphic. I will not watch this, because it will just make me upset. So, I've just had a good sense of knowing my limits.
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: And she's also learned how to live out her values in her choices. We were just talking about the movie Woman King because I am dying to see it. And we were planning to see it together. And she said, I don't think I want to see it anymore. The tribe that they were talking about sold people into slavery regularly, and I just don't like that feeling. I don't think I want to see it. And I was like, okay, that's your choice. But the fact that she is thinking and exploring and then coming up with a stance based on fact and information, and not just the wind. I love. We don't have to agree, but it's a solid stance to have, and she can explain to you exactly why she feels that way. And that's what you want to see as your children become adults.
CARA HAGAN: Mm hmm. That's, that's a really great point. And, you know, Rayna good on you for standing by your thoughts about things. So, if the Woman King is not on your list of things to see, or to read or to listen to, what is on your list coming up? What are you excited about? What do you want to see? What do you want to hear? What do you want to read?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN: Uhhh well, I really want to see Nope. I bought it on Amazon [laughter] and I’ve watched the beginning. And so far, it's really good. So, I want to finish that ‘cause I couldn't see it when we were in when it was in theaters because I worked at the movie theater, and they knew I was under 17 so they wouldn't let me in. Um and as for books, I don't really know about like new books because I'm not like searching out for new books. What—how I figure out if like a book is good is like mostly based on what category it's put in because oddly like fiction made for like middle schoolers is sometimes really good ‘cause they can't rely on like gore or sex scenes. So, it has like really good plots really good substance, which is one reason I think Goosebumps is like really underrated. It's really quality horror, ‘cause they can't rely on gore [Laughter].
CARA HAGAN: When I was in seventh grade Goosebumps was my jam. That’s all I'm gonna say Goosebumps was my jam. Still is. I still love Goosebumps. [Laughter]. How do you feel, like, young people can help shape conversations around media more broadly, as a parent who has a child who helps you to think differently about media?
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: I think so much of it is us shutting up and listening. They are having those conversations, they are putting the thoughts, they are putting the information out there. But we discredit it because they're children. And that's where we miss an opportunity. Yes, she's 16. She's not technically an adult, but she's not 5. Like she has a fully, you know, her brain is capable of some really high-quality analysis and, and critique.
CARA HAGAN: Mmm, So beautiful. And obviously all of these things that you're talking about, Rayna, about how you're uh consuming media, how you're thinking about it, I mean, these are all really interesting ways to move through the world as a person who has really concrete ideas about what you want to watch what you want to read and why. And so, as a young person, what power do you feel like you have, and your peers have, to change the landscape, the media landscape, such that it reflects more of what you're interested in, and the values that you hold as young people?
RAYNA CHRISTIAN:Um, I think it's kind of spreading awareness to the older generation of of who don't really like know that much about social media and the popular influences on it about how powerful they can actually be. ‘Cause like, the biggest creator, I can think of is like Jake Paul, he's very popular with kids under 7. But like, if you see any parents talk about like, Jake, Paul, they all say he's not appropriate for children. His content is not good for children. But like, with a lot of the older generation, they don't really know about YouTube stars. And it's like, oh, that's kind of like a childish profession. So don't really think about the influence he's having on children. So, it's more of just like raising awareness to the older generation.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah, good point. I appreciate that. So, as we wrap up our conversation today, is there anything else that either of you, um want the folks who are listening to know about your job as a parent or as a young person, or some of the things that you feel will be important moving forward in terms of your relationship with media?
TIFFANY CHRISTIAN: I'm excited for what children— your child's age will have. Because we are making progress. And there are so many, the the portrayal in media is so varied. There's not just one type of girl that we see in media now. There's so many more opportunities to see yourself, somewhere to find yourself, somewhere in the media you're consuming. So, I'm just so excited that that the times are changing, and that it's expanding, and that our young girls can look to media with a different eye because they can find things that speak to them, and that they can emulate because there's so much more there. It's so much richer than it was.
CARA HAGAN: Thank you both so much for joining me today. Uh so much wisdom, so many pearls, so many gems and um I can't wait to share this with everyone. Thank you so much.
And that’s today’s episode. Join me next time, where I sit down with Dr. Julie Johnson, Chair of Dance and Performance at Spelman College.
OUTRO: How People Move People, is brought to you by The National Center of Choreography at The University of Akron, or NCCAkron. This podcast is produced by Jennifer Edwards, James Sleeman is our editor, theme music by Ellis Rovin, transcription by Arushi Signh, cover art by Micah Kraus. I am Dacquiri Baptiste, Vice President and COO at Orpheum Theatre Group in Memphis TN, and a NCCAkron Board Member. Special thanks to The John S. and James L. Knight Foundation for their continued support of NCCAkron programming like this. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for How People Move People.