In this episode of Back and Forth, host, Cara Hagan shares two conversations. One with Dr. Lisa Covington, a sociology and digital humanities scholar whose research explores media representations of Black youth. And the second, with two young girls, Inez, who is eight and Mari, who is ten, to chat about their thoughts and experiences with on the pop culture and media.
In this episode of Back and Forth, host, Cara Hagan shares two conversations. One with Dr. Lisa Covington, a sociology and digital humanities scholar whose research explores media representations of Black youth. And the second, with two young girls, Inez, who is eight and Mari, who is ten, to chat about their thoughts and experiences with on the pop culture and media.
INTRO: Welcome to How People Move People, a podcast about the impact that our words, art, stories, and lives have on each other. Each series' journey unfolds in a sequence of six episodes. The first series titled ‘Back and Forth’ is hosted by Cara Hagan, a New York City-based choreographer, professor, and mother who explores the influence of pop culture on the lives of black girls, from the 1990s to today. Guests range from poets and thought-leaders to mom-and-daughter teams, to an original Fly Girl from the Wayans Brothers hit ‘90s TV show, “In Living Color.”
CARA HAGAN:Hello friends and welcome to Back and Forth a podcast exploring pop culture and the kinetic lives of Black girls. In the last episode I have the pleasure of speaking with Dierdre Lang, one of the original Fly Girls on the 90s comedy sketch show, “In Living Color.” Since that interview, I’ve wondered about how other girls who are about the age I was when I encountered the Fly Girls, see pop culture today. I’ve also wondered about how the relationship of Black girls to pop culture has shifted since I was a child. My special guests today include media scholar Lisa Covington and two young girls, Mari, and Inez, who tell me about their pop culture influences and how they experience their girlhood relationship to that.
Dr. Lisa Covington is a sociology and digital humanities scholar, and her research explores media representations of Black youth. In 2020, Covington received a Martin Luther King Jr. Achievement Award for her research in community engagement from the Department of Human Rights for the state of Iowa. Most recently, she was named an inaugural Presidential Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of Arizona. Dr. Covington, Welcome. So good to have you.
LISA COVINGTON: Thank you so much, Cara. Great to be here with you.
CARA HAGAN: So, I want to start by asking you what media or media experiences, while consuming media, inspired you to pursue your particular trajectory of research?
LISA COVINGTON: Wow, that's such a great question. And I don't think I can answer it with just one piece of media. But I do remember going to the movies with my mom to see Crooklyn. That was one of the like, very salient memories that I have of us just kind of hanging out, but also witnessing Black girlhood together in a way that we hadn't previously. And so, I didn't know it at the time that that's what was happening. But I was able to relate to Troy and being in an environment with mostly boys, also hanging out with cousins in the South, right? And how it seemed like a different world. So that was definitely an experience I had as well, you know. So being able to connect with Troy, and her character really impacted my just ways of thinking about the world, but also how I can see myself in the world so…
CARA HAGAN: Hmm so for our listeners who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit more specifically about your work through a project that you've worked on or are working on in the scope of media and Black girls?
LISA COVINGTON: Definitely. So, a lot of my work is in relation to Black girls in film and media. And so, I'm also a scholar-in-residence at Art Center, which is in Los Angeles, and a lot of the work that we're doing and projects that we're working on is looking at representations of Black girls in various types of visual media, and having think tank conversations with Black women in, in throughout the entertainment industry. And so, what are their thoughts about some of these images? How are we able to change some of them? Which ones are we not able to change? And just really figuring out together through our think tank, what are the ways that we need to change Hollywood, but also empower ourselves as media folks, whether we're people who are artists, scholars, or within the entertainment industry? And so that's one of the projects I'm working on currently.
CARA HAGAN: Hmm, beautiful. So, I'd love to know about some of the trends you observe regarding the representation of Black girlhood in media—what are some are your opinions on the things that you're seeing?
LISA COVINGTON: You know, recently, you know, within the past 10 years, 15 years, there has been an explosion of Black characters, Black girl characters especially, and so I think that has a lot to do with our social perceptions and understandings of our environment, right? And so I like to connect this to the appearance of President Obama and his daughters in particular, and how they allowed America to see Black girlhood in their own development. So in in real time, we were able to watch Sasha and Malia grow up. And so that marker really provides a space for folks to say, “oh- okay, I can relate to these girls.” And I think that has a lot to do with why we've seen such an explosion of these characters. And so, a lot of the trends though, you know, I think begin at least with since the 2000s begin with Sasha and Malia being such a national presence. I think that one thing we're also seeing in media, and we can see this with programs like That’s So Raven right from the 90s, but also contemporarily, looking at That Girl Lay Lay on Nickelodeon, and how similar they are as far as being young women who have been working since they were children, right? And also, being in charge of their own brand. And so, entrepreneur, Black girl entrepreneurs, who are creating and developing groundbreaking television shows, in this case, really provides us with a way to see these girls as social, as really change agents, without them necessarily taking that title on, but they are changing the industry just from their existence.
CARA HAGAN: Hmm so then you work with a lot of young people out in the world as well. So how are you observing these young folks consuming this media? And what are you seeing that they're learning or mimicking or adopting, assimilating as they're watching?
LISA COVINGTON: Yeah, that's a complicated question because a lot of times, they don't talk about what they're watching. And we have too very like too many types of media that can be consumed, right? So, it's not just television anymore, right? We have the streaming services, we have TikTok, we have YouTube. So, a lot of what they're engaging with what I've observed, a lot of it is, depending on what’s cool right at school, everyone, whatever everyone needs to watch, in that regard. But also, really just thinking a lot about music. Because when we would drive when we drive the girls home, from different programs, they would pick a lot of the music. And so just kind of hearing their selections, hearing their conversations about artists who may be problematic, and they talk through it. So, I think one of the things that I've noticed with young people is the willingness to have conversations about artists or about media, in ways that are honest, but also, like, reflect their own lives.
CARA HAGAN: Pondering Dr. Covington’s mention of the multiple platforms we now use to consume media, I asked two experts for their opinion on the media landscape and their experiences within it.
INEZ: My name is Inez. I am eight years old, and I am an artist in all different mediums.
MARI: My name is Mari. I'm ten. And I'm a competitive gymnast.
CARA HAGAN: So, this question is for both of you. What are some of your pop culture heroes, sheroes and non-binary inspirations at the moment?
MARI: Sadie Sink, she's an actor, and she's in Stranger Things. She's in a lot of other shows. But that's what I know her from. And Billie Eilish, she's a singer.
INEZ: Well, it's kind of a coincidence, ‘cause I also do like Billie Eilish, Lizzo, and Beyonce. Lizzo is a singer. And I think that she used to play flute. Beyonce is also a singer, and she is also an icon, and I love her. And Billie Eilish is also a singer, and she has a habit for dyeing her hair multiple times.
CARA HAGAN: Awesome. And so, when you think about these people who are in the public eye, what about them are you drawn to? Why do you love them so much?
MARI: I like Sadie Sink’s acting she's really good at acting. And Billie Eilish, she's a good singer. Um, she dyes her hair like a different color every year. And she's actually really nice to kids.
CARA HAGAN: What about you, Inez?
INEZ: Well, I love Lizzo because she is super confident about how she looks and she doesn’t let other people bring her down. I love Beyonce because she is also very confident, and she's very kind and loving to people that she brings joy to.
CARA HAGAN: Awesome. And so, when you think about these people, what are they teaching you about what it means to be a girl today? And how do you find that helpful, unhelpful, neutral?
INEZ: Well, the message that what I listen to carries is, be yourself, be unique, and don't be afraid about other people bringing you down and tearing you up.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah. And so who that you listen to or watch is saying that message or putting that message across in some way?
INEZ: Lizzo, definitely.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah. How does she do that?
INEZ: By expressing herself and telling the whole world I don't care. I'm myself.
CARA HAGAN: So thenin terms of things that you see, that you watch that you listen to, what are some not so helpful messages that you feel like you see or hear sometimes?
MARI: That if you're a specific race or gender, that you have to do this or that you're not this or you're not good enough or that you're not pretty enough.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah. What about you Inez? Where are those unhelpful messages coming from?
INEZ: Well, one that I can see is definitely very unhelpful is that all Black girls are the same?
CARA HAGAN: Hmm. And where are you hearing that or seeing that?
INEZ: Well, sometimes when I'm watching videos, an app at, oh my god, an ad pops up. And the ad is about social awareness. And it talks about how not everybody is the same and you can't put people into one category. And then describe everybody else as different.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah. So then in terms of the kinds of things that are available to you, as young people in 2022, what do you feel like those who are making shows and music, and apps might be getting wrong about you as young people? Like what assumptions might be made by adults who are making media that we may be catering to you but you don't think is quite right?
MARI: Um a lot of the time, they think that like we're really immature and that we don't know anything that's happening in the world. And like, we just think of like rainbows and ponies and stuff.
INEZ: Yes. Like they target, I don't know, My Little Pony stuff in that category. And then when young people ask for new things, you're like, “oh, but what, what do want?” And I think that what they get wrong about us is that little people can't do big things.
CARA HAGAN: Mmmh. That's a good point. So, if there were folks your age, in charge of some piece of media or pop culture, where you could produce a podcast, or do a TV show, or have an app or platform of your very own, what kinds of things would you want to talk about on it, make music about dance about?
INEZ: I would post about is art and music about influencing others to be themselves [Hagan: Yeah]. Also, like you make a podcast. It would probably be about embracing your true beauty, and loving those around you who seem out of it.
CARA HAGAN: Hmmm. And when you mean, when you say out of it, what do you mean?
INEZ: Well like, they feel like an outsider.
CARA HAGAN: So, to the people who are listening to this podcast, what is something that you would like them to know about your relationship to pop culture, something that they may be hearing or seeing within pop culture, or something that you want to see within pop culture?
INEZ: Something I would like to see more in pop culture is every pop culture person embracing everybody and embracing themselves, and talking about love yourself. Be careful about how you act or the way you propose something. And yeah…
MARI: Um something I would like to see more is like people just embracing their body types and their race and just knowing that they're perfect how they are, and telling other people that they're perfect like they are. And just not, you know, talking about how you're supposed to look and what you need to look like, and how you're supposed to act and what you need to act like, when you know you're fine just the way you are.
CARA HAGAN: Back to my conversation with Dr. Covington
CARA HAGAN: So, I want to go back to something that you said about the Obama family being in the White House and the visibility of Sasha and Malia during that time. I'd like to know a little bit about what influence Black girls have on the production of new media, and the ways that Black culture acts as a reciprocal space where the media is influenced by and influencing Black girls?
LISA COVINGTON: Yeah, and I think that's where we kind of get into a tough position because so much of the media replicates the experiences or observations of Black girls without centering them in the production process or the creative process [Hagan: Yeah] So the programs I mentioned earlier, That Girl Lay Lay, That's So Raven, they were in in are in very unique positions, because of their own social entrepreneurship, right? There's also this piece of thinking about Black families in production. And so, I'm thinking specifically about Nickelodeon’s Gullah Gullah Island from about 25 years ago [Hagan: Oh Yeah] [laughter].
CARA HAGAN: Yes, I remember that and Binyah Binyah had my heart.
LISA COVINGTON: Awww, oh my gosh, yes. The magical frog [Hagan: Yes] on the show [Hagan: Yes]. Yes, yes. And so that being a TV show based on the experiences of people living in Gullah communities, contemporarily, right? Like today, here are Black folks, here's a Black family that lives on this island, and in this space, and here's how we honor our ancestors. Here's how we honor the traditions of the African diaspora. Here's how we can recognize our children as full, capable human beings. And this loving, loving parents and loving family that were able to transform media because they were all, all of the folks in the cast were actual family members, right? [Hagan:Yes] So the mother and the father were the parents of the two children, right? On the show, as far as we know, right, as far as what's out there. And this just ability to kind of sneak in, like droplets of the diaspora, right? So we might know the names of, you know, Gullah Gullah Island, right? for example. But we, we did not know the force and the complete gravity of how powerful it is just to have something named after Gullah folks, [Hagan: Mmmh] right? So I think this idea around production is connected to not only having this influence of Black culture, but ensuring that people who are part of the African diaspora in creating Black culture have space to do that work, right? So that's something that's that's really huge.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah, I'm tickled that you brought that up, because that was actually a really interesting show for me growing up, because my great grandfather was Geechee as my grandmother said, and they presented some of the language she used to say, “well, I talk funny because my daddy was Geechee.” And I didn't know what she meant by that, because she never said any of the words that she may or may have known. But through that particular show, I went, “Oh, this, this is probably what she meant,” you know, through some of the words that they the language that they presented in that show, and some of the music and some of the arts and crafts that they presented. So thanks for bringing back to that memory. I appreciate that.
LISA COVINGTON: Yes, no problem. I think is so important for us to remember, like, what sparks our interest or when we hear something, how can we connect that memory to it? And yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's such a beautiful memory. And it's also allowing you to kind of put these pieces together too even though grandmother didn't explain it, you can, you know, use those breadcrumbs to figure out what she was talking about, even though it wasn't explicit.
CARA HAGAN: So speaking about specific shows, I mean, I'm wondering about some of the new stuff that is coming out that you think is particularly well done because of representation, either on screen or importantly off screen. I mean, we know that the off screen world is very fraught with issues regarding diversity and inclusion. So what are you seeing now that's making you feel hopeful about Black girl stories, about their representation in all areas of production? What sparkling for you?
LISA COVINGTON: I think that part of what helpful is to kind of think about not only the media itself, but the like socio-political environment that it's created [Hagan: Yeah] Right? And so one film that I really, I really enjoy, and that is also very helpful for me, is the film, See You Yesterday. It's a Netflix film that kind of follows these two high school geniuses who ended up building a time machine, right? [Hagan: Who] And so the time machine, it's, it's really interesting, because when you watch the beginning of the film, you can see that Michael J. Fox is their teacher, right? And so having that kind of connection to Back to the Future, where he was a part of this time machine is well, it's kind of interesting dynamic to watch. But especially since you can see him reading Octavia Butler, right? in that particular film, and he's, he's only present for one scene, but we can kind of see the, the role of Octavia Butler, time travel in, in her literature, in particular, but then also following these young Black high schoolers who are brilliant navigate the community, specifically police violence, right? And how can they change police violence or end police violence through this time machine, right? [Yeah] So that's such a that is a really powerful film. And it's based in Brooklyn, in a Caribbean community, and you can see in the characters, casts are also Caribbean as well. So it really provides vast, I think, a really vast representation with this lens of here's what's happening in our social and material world, as well. So See You Yesterday, for sure as far as films. I think, I think there's so much happening in more of the short film world as well. That requires us to think about how we consume media as well, to even access some of those. I know that kweliTV, they have a lot of these short films and cartoons and different things like that, for us to enjoy that, essentially a Black Netflix. So I think that for us thinking about how we consume our media is part of what I'm thinking about that, that is hopeful that different platforms [Hagan: Yes] as well.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah, two things are coming up for me, as you talk about the Net-the Netflix film that you mentioned. In that one, there's this intergenerational piece where pop culture continually references itself and the way that it evolves by tipping its hat to something, therefore to say something new. And then the other thing that's coming up for me is that this piece about people in marginalized groups, always having stories that involve some traumatic piece or part of that marginalization, right? So you have these wonderful teens who are making this time machine, but to address police violence, which seems like something that obviously we cannot get away from, and it has so much to do with how we move through the world, how we use our bodies, how we use our socio-political agency, and and a real challenge to just moving around spaces in general. And so I'm wondering, where do you see any spaces where Black youth, Black girls in particular, have the space to not engage with the trauma of being Black? Where do they get to do just magic, fairy tale, like, mundane, boring, or otherwise, right? that doesn't have to do with Okay, well, we've put Black people on screen, we've put Black girls, Black youth on screen. And of course, there's an issue because that's what we see all the time, you know what I mean?
LISA COVINGTON: Yeah, and I think that uhm I think that the way that this particular film addresses the social issue is different than like, the Hate You Give, for example, where it's much more visceral, and has a lot more like white characters and different things. But I think that as far as like spaces where Black girls can exist and be, I think we can learn a lot from That Girl Lay Lay. I think that she's such a great example of like, what does it mean, when you take charge of your own media? What does it mean when you take charge of your own image similar to Raven Simone, you know, before before Lay Lay? But I also think that YouTube is a lot of is a space where a lot of young people go to create, in addition to TikTok, of course. So I think that social media is the primary medium where Black girls can feel and be free with each other, in safe spaces with each other and with their allies. So I think that's definitely the primary space. The challenge with that becomes another social issue outside of outside of the girls themselves, right? So it becomes people calling cornrows by a different name, right? The gentrification of, of Black girls and women's imagery is what ends up happening in a lot of social media spaces. So, So I think that as far as, like spaces to feel safe and regular, really requires us to look at what media is being pertain— created? How does it pertain to Black girls? And thinking about films like Just Another Girl on the I.R.T. and the lessons in that and what does it mean to be yourself and show up as yourself, even when things don't go as planned? [Hagan: Yeah] And even something like Bébé'sKids, right? Like looking at looking at how LaShawn experiences the world in Bébé's Kids as a, you know, even though it is a cartoon, we can kind of see her leadership with her brothers, right? So I think a lot of a lot of these, the imagery requires us to not only look at the present and plan for the future, but also look behind us to these other films. And even I'm thinking of Lauryn Hill and Sister Act, right? And yeah, those images and how different they are than what we see now even, so… Yeah. And there's another Netflix film called Project Power, right? That's really impactful. Also thinking of Kerry Washington's first major film in 2000 called Our Song. So there are a lot of anchor pieces that we can look at, and explore, even if we hadn't heard them before we can, you know, access them now, which is really great.
CARA HAGAN: Yeah, I haven't seen that Kerry Washington film, I'll have to look it up. So [Covington: Yes]. So in closing, I mean, you've dropped so many gems of wisdom for us, and what are you looking forward to in the future? Like what's coming down the pipe? Or what have you heard recently, that you yourself, just Dr. Covington, nobody else, that you are super excited about that either makes you dance or makes you cry, or just gives you immense joy?
LISA COVINGTON: Hmmm, I'm really excited about Black girls creating their own media for their own profit. So I think that is what makes me dance. And I'm really excited about like, what does it mean to support Black girls in in those efforts? I'm also really excited about how the world gets to see Black girls in all of the mundane to the exciting to the just regular appearances. I think that it's really beautiful for younger Black girls to see images of themselves without having to think about it. Because in previous generations, it was like, “wow, you know, I didn't have any images to look at, or I didn't have any examples of Black women or girls on screen,” small screen or large screen, right? So I think that that evolution is empowering for Black girls. And it's exciting to see how they get so accustomed to seeing themselves as well. So those are definitely some things I'm excited about.
CARA HAGAN: Mmm, love it. food, food for the soul. So yeah, that's that those are all the questions that I had. And I want to thank you for joining us today. What amazing stuff that you've brought us in terms of your research and your scholarship and just your awesomeness. And so thanks, thanks so much.
LISA COVINGTON: Thank you so much for inviting me. Glad to be here.
CARA HAGAN: Lately, I’ve been listening to all the music that shaped my childhood. It brings back memories, of course, but it also helps me to better understand the times I grew up in and how different the world feels now. As we come to the end of this podcast journey, this celebration of Black girlhood, I have both deep fear and tremendous hope for the future and our young people who are navigating incredible challenges with fierce ingenuity. In light of the ongoing school shootings that have happened alongside the production of this podcast, I feel now, more than ever that we must work to protect childhood. Through my conversations with the artists, authors, change-makers, and movers on this podcast, I feel that we’ve been gifted some roadmaps to do that. Hoisting our childhood selves onto our shoulders, street dance activism, conscious parenting, mentorship, creating opportunities for others to thrive - among the many other gems our guests have offered. As a closing to this project, I want to send a big thank you to each and every one of my guests, to the National Center for Choreography and to Better Consulting. To our listeners, thank you for your time and attention. I hope you have enjoyed this journey as much as I have.
OUTRO: How People Move People, is brought to you by The National Center of Choreography at The University of Akron, or NCCAkron. This podcast is produced by Jennifer Edwards, James Sleeman is our editor, theme music by Ellis Rovin, transcription by Arushi Signh, cover art by Micah Kraus. I am Dacquiri Baptiste, Vice President and COO at Orpheum Theatre Group in Memphis TN, and a proud NCCAkron Board Member. Special thanks to The John S. and James L. Knight Foundation for their continued support of NCCAkron programming like this. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for How People Move People.