In this episode of Trace Elements, we spend time with Phil Chan (founder of Final Bow For Yellow Face) and Graham Lustig (Artistic Director, Oakland Ballet), each in conversation with host, Jose Solís about ballet choreographer Choo San Goh (Goh Choo San), who died of AIDS in 1987. Choo San was a rising star, having created ballets for some of the world's leading companies. He is but one example of the art and creativity taken from the world by this epidemic.
In this episode of Trace Elements, we spend time with Phil Chan (founder of Final Bow For Yellow Face) and Graham Lustig (Artistic Director, Oakland Ballet), each in conversation with host, Jose Solís about ballet choreographer Choo San Goh (Goh Choo San), who died of AIDS in 1987. Choo San was a rising star, having created ballets for some of the world's leading companies. He is but one example of the art and creativity taken from the world by this epidemic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goh_Choo_San
INTRO: Welcome to How People Move People, a podcast about the impact that our words, art, stories, and lives have on each other. Each series' journey unfolds in a sequence of six episodes. This series titled ‘Trace Elements’ is hosted by Jose Solis, a Hounduran, Madrid-based culture writer and researcher who explores the impact left by artists both dead and living, who were impacted by the HIV/AIDS epidemic that continues today. Solis traveled between the Americas and Europe to gather stories of men and trans women. We honor their stories in their first languages, offering half of this series in English and half in Spanish.
PHIL CHAN: My name is Phil Chan. I'm the co-founder of Final Bow for Yellowface. I'm an educator and advocate, a choreographer, director and an author.
I first learned about Choo-San’s work through the Washington Ballet. And it always, he always stuck out in my mind is like, oh, here's this like, this, this door has been open before. But I didn't really know too much about his history and or his legacy. And it was, you know, really doing this advocacy work with Final Bow for Yellowface, really trying to improve Asian, Asian representation, that I started consciously asking myself, okay, well, like let's make some lists. Who are our people who are our trailblazers who has come before? And just realizing, wow, Choo-San made work everywhere. Like he was he was making ballets for American Ballet Theatre, for Baryshnikov in the 80s. You know, he was the resident choreographer of a major American ballet company, he did a full length Romeo and Juliet for Boston Ballet, and he was working in Europe and the United States. And here was this really high caliber artist who is who is starting to move in these really big ways and working literally for everybody. And why did I not know about him in the same way that I knew, you know, Jerome Robbins, or, or Joffrey or Agnes DeMille? Or, you know, these other great American choreographers, Alvin Ailey. Why was Choo-San’s name not in that, in that class. And, you know, you dig a little bit deeper into his history, you see that there is, you know, he was an artist who was just coming into his prime, you know, finding his individual voice, unique voice, something that inspired and got a lot of people excited, that was even, you know, despite the racial barriers in place already. Just so undeniably talented that it just like, it didn't matter. It was just the work spoke for itself. Those barriers that I, are still in place that I face myself, you know, like he was just so good that it didn't matter. And then he was taken away just at his prime. And so, you know, you can't help but wonder, like, what, what more time would have given us? What kind of work, what kind of questions, what kind of answers? Especially as a queer Asian man too, you know, like, that was also you know, just the images of, sort of, you know, asexual or hypersexual Asian men, you know, in our, in our popular discourse. It's either one or the other. And to be seen as an artist, to be seen with nuance, you know, just was incredible for him. Just really incredible. And so a lot of my work is, and then, you know, as I was digging deeper, realizing that he started a foundation, and the idea of the foundation was that the royalties from his ballet would go to support the next generation of choreographers. And that was like, wow, I'm not really I don't have to reinvent the wheel here, like this is already, this is already a path. So as we're working with the Gold Center Arts Foundation, which is the sort of next iteration of Final Bow for Yellowface, where we're looking to really be that service organization for Asian American creatives in dance. To offer choreographic fellowships, to offer resources to the community to be that hub. It's like, oh, he was already thinking that he was already trying to do that and set that up. And so it feels in some way, like, we're being passed the baton, that wasn't been a, it wasn't able to be handed to us. We were picking up the baton that's been dropped, which as you know, is a lot harder than if someone just, just hands it right into your hand and says, keep running. We had to stop and pick it up, before we could keep running. So yeah, I mean, but also just like, how affirming for our work, to say somebody has been here before. This door has been opened. It might feel like it's locked. It's just very heavy, but it's unlocked. So just keep pushing. And what a gift, that is, if nothing else.
JOSE SOLÍS: Sorry for the abrupt shift, but dance and the world of choreography is obviously very inclusive. It can be a safe space for queer people and LGBTQI+ people. So as a historian, I guess, and as someone who knows very well the history of dance in, in, in America, can you just share some impressions about what you think the HIV epidemic did to Choo-San? Because I wonder if you ever look at it as someone who is much younger and someone who did not have to, didn't go through the same things that people like, you know, the people why I'm doing this series had to go through where like, suddenly, like this beautiful space was threatened by this virus that people didn't understand. That people didn't know how to make sense of and how that suddenly became like a place that didn’t feel as safe, I guess, anymore.
PHIL CHAN: Yeah, I mean, I think the AIDS epidemic really wiped out a generation on both sides of the foot, footlights. So when we talk about institutional knowledge, I mean, even just as audience members, right, like, dressing up, looking amazing, going to the opera, going to the ballet, being educated, being able to actually. There was a culture of being educated and learning and developing a point of view and developing a taste. Like, you know, people argue about which which rapper that they like, better, you know, and it used to be which opera soprano they loved more, you know, like that level of dialogue, you know, are you a Nicki girl, you know, are you Dojo Cat? Like, what's, you know, who's better, you know? We used to do that, you know, with, with dancers and opera singers, and, you know, it was just a different time and a different layer, so that we have these art forms that do present some barriers, you know, that are, it's hard to get into, you do require little education to be comfortable walking into an opera or ballet. And there were other queer people in those spaces who could bring you along. And suddenly, even just from the audience side, that's gone. So there isn't like, you know, there were very few of that next generation saying, hey, kid, come here. Let me let me take you to an opera. Let me show you what this is. Let me, let me, let me give you a piece of, of your soul that's, you know, available to you in this art form. And so just as an audience member, we lost that and we're now having to work to consciously rebuild that culture. And it's not, it's an effort, right? Like you need to get like the current, my current gay boys to be like, girl, we are, I just bought a block of tickets to the MET. We are gonna go see Agnan (?), you're gonna see Anthony Roth Costanzo come down that staircase, naked as a queen. Yes mama, you're going to love it. And like it takes that level of, of bringing them in to get them to see well, like I said, this a part of my soul that I can have access to. And that's just the audience side man, like, look at the artistic talent. You know, on the other side of the footlights, that we lost I mean, potential choreographers, artistic leaders, composers, you know, just ,just so many people, dancers, performers, right, like, incredible artists that we lost on stage, that not only we lost them for what they could give, but also the influence they could have on the next generation of artists. And if you think about how art and Ballet especially is transmitted. It's a Ballet, I mean, the word culture really is a good word for that. Like, I like to think about it as like sourdough bread, like, especially in dance, which is an oral art form, like, you have to take a little bit of the past generation, you know. An older dancer will come to you and say, this is the step. But if you breathe right here, it's easier. You know, actually, if you push harder right here, you're not going to make it. You have to finesse this moment. Or here's an analogy or a visual that's going to help you with making the audience feel right here. Or oh, you're crying too soon. You know, give it another moment here. Hear this in the music? Wait, wait until that moment, and that's when you get the audience. You know, so those little secrets, those little tips and tricks, the magic passed down from one generation to the next, that you can't capture in a video. Those little secrets were, were lost. And, you know, it's it's so different than I think other art forms, you know, like, like plays or music even that have a written notation. There is dance notation, it's cumbersome, it's expensive, but it still doesn't quite get to the feeling of a, of a work. It's just, dance is just one of those things, you know, everybody has a body, but you can't quite put into words when you see an incredible, you know, performer and so how do you, how do you get that magic? Yes, some of its talent, but a lot of it is hard work, you know. And someone direction to teach you how to work and someone to help you and so to not have that generation, you know, is a disservice, and it limits several generations out for what can really happen, you know. Because then if I'm missing that information, I'm less wealthy to pass on to the next, you know. And so there is a ripple down effect through the generations that yeah, something is lost.
JOSE SOLÍS: That's an exhilarating and heartbreaking discovery to, to meet someone that, that you can't get to have a conversation with and it's like, yeah, like, he was here. And now unfortunately, I can't talk to him, but I know that he existed. And that gives me some comfort and solace. So you can get as technical as you want with what I'm about to ask. But what kind of questions would you ask him if you were able to have a conversation with him?
PHIL CHAN: I think I am having a conversation with him. And it is through his work. You know, we are planning with, with the Kennedy Center to dedicate a program that honors Asian choreography. So this is a choreographic festival. But it's dedicated to Asian choreographers who are making work right now. So we don't need Swan Lake, we don't need anything that's old. It's literally new work from our community. And the fact that we as an industry are able to even offer these programs that were not available a generation ago, right. So the fact that we have major American companies commissioning this work, and that we can do it on a festival together is already speaking volumes. And our sort of gala program is dedicated to Choo-San. So we're looking to both bring revivals of his work forward, but also have Asian American artists now respond to that work and highlight the work we're doing now. So in many ways, it's, I did not meet this person, I claim no ownership of this person. But I think just by placing my feet in the same steps that he did, in the same ecosystem, with the same idea of seeing a similar vision of how it could be bigger for more people. I think just that shared energy gives, gives me some connection to just another person. This is just another fellow human being who had a life and had a journey and we are connected by our spirits, if not, by blood or by knowing each other. But I think that's, I feel that desire very strongly my own work of wanting to have that be bigger and have that be an opportunity. So we are, we are having a discussion. But also being you know, being Chinese, I'm very, I feel very strongly about family and the connections of that. So in touch with Choo-San’s family and creating an opportunity for them to also continue his legacy is very important. So the people who knew him and loved him best are able to know that people are still talking about him and want to see his work and want to ask questions. So I don't know what he would say as an individual in this moment. But as a person who is treading this path, this similar path, I think he would be very happy that he is not the only one. And that there are so many others now that we can do a full program. And what a burden, it is off of us to have to be the first or the only one, when we can just be celebrating each other as a community. So I think that's probably, I would say, what, what the spirit of this work feels like.
GRAHAM LUSTIG: My name is Graham Lustig. I'm the artistic director of the Oakland Ballet. Oakland Ballet is celebrating its 58th year of existence, and I'm the artistic director, and I also contribute to the repertoire with choreography.
If Choo-San was with us today, I think he would be a leading choreographer, world-renowned, but also a leading director. And as a director, I think he would have cut a different path forwards for Ballet in this country, whichever company he was with, but if it was the Houston ballet, I think he would have the others he would have created a pathway for other choreographers, and other dancers to follow him. People like Phil Chan would have had this, Choo-San would have been there at the top of the mountain. And Phil as a young dancer would have seen him as, oh, I can become a director, I can become an international choreographer. So there's that representation that was lost. And I think would have been very very valuable, especially to the world of Ballet, which has not been as embracing of diversity as it could have been. And then on a personal note, 1987 was when Choo-San passed away, and he had discovered an Aria from, it's an Aria sung by Delilah, to Samson, Samson and Delilah. And it's a beautiful Aria. And he would, he would play this and we would listen to this, and he would become very, very emotional. And, so I cannot hear that song, that Aria, and not be transported to a warehouse apartment in Chelsea, in 1987, in New York City. The apartment wasn't even, he had not even finished the apartment before he passed away. He was still renovating the space. And so that is the thing that when I listened to it, I, I It's a beautiful emotional song. And I, I just feel comforted to have had this moment. And the song that so strongly makes me think of him.
JOSE SOLÍS: Thank you for that. That's, that's. Thank you, thank you.
If you don't mind talking about this, would you mind sharing how, if at all, you know, that the Coronavirus pandemic, made you think or remind you about what it was like to be in the 80s and early 90s, when the, you know, HIV AIDS became an epidemic basically, we lost so many people that should be here today?
GRAHAM LUSTIG: Dancing through the AIDS pandemic was extremely confronting. Because we lost so many people. So many young people around us who appeared to be in fine, physical form: loose, supple, strong, amazing dancers. It didn't, AIDS epidemic, didn't stop us working. We weren't isolated. We were dancing together. And then someone didn't come to work. And you didn't know. And in some cases, people were dead in six weeks. And that deep shock. And as a practicing homosexual you had this incredible question: Am I going to get it? Or do I already have it? You know, and early, not much was known about the precautions that one needed to take. So, that's where isolationism, I think occurred. You just became so afraid to have any kind of physical contact. It was easier to self-isolate, and not to be physical. And so that level of fear was very palpable. And it seemed to be all around us. And, of course, you know, working in the ballet, there are all sorts of other artists, around. Designers, musicians, composers. We even lost crew, stage crew. So the sense of grief for that, during that time, and now, I don't know, a sense of grief that still exists, is very strong. And I think I have tried to stay positive with the celebration of life, with a celebration of having this wonderful friendship with Choo-San, of being so incredibly proud of his success. And being close to that success and living that a little bit, you know, through him. And so I kind of want to stay in that place. Because it's a dark place, if you go and think about all, everybody that we lost them, what would they have become, had they be still be at being alive today? And you can't help but ask the question, well, why didn't it happen to me? I did not say I'm not suggesting I'm drowning in survivor's guilt, but there you cannot, you know, live through that and not ask yourself afterwards, you know. I lost my brother to AIDS. I lost a former lover to AIDS. I lost Choo-San to AIDS, my best friend. And of course, many other people. So YEAH it was a very, very difficult time To live through. And I know that through the Coronavirus pandemic, people have also lost loved ones, especially in the older generations. But even younger people have been have been taken. And in a way, tragically, there was a period early on with HIV AIDS, when little was known, and patients died untouched in isolation. If you remember or if you know of that time. And, tragically, we have just experienced through the pandemic, where people were in the ICU, and intubated and eventually, you know, there was no hope for them and they died in isolation, their families couldn't hold their hand, they couldn't have anybody close to them. And I, you know, my heart goes out to them. And to all of those people who have lost somebody dear to them through this yeah this terrible disease that has taken millions from our planet. So I'm sorry, it's somber. I don't feel don't have a bright side to this question, to this answer for you. I am, I'm just filled with a lot of grief and sadness, be that from 30-40 years ago, or even from now. So yeah, I think there's a, I definitely think there's a resonance between what happened then happened has happened recently. I don't think we're even, I mean, I haven't had enough time to process. You know, I'm still in that, trying to find out, understand, take perspective, learn, grow. And so, it does bring you closer again, to that feeling of live your best life. Love your day. You know, live with grace, live with joy, appreciate the beauty.
JOSE SOLÍS: You mentioned you know, he was rare, and being again, like a rare AAPI person who's an artistic director and who gets to choreograph pieces. Was that something that he talked about? Was it something, you know, present in his everyday life? You know, the weight of that? The loneliness of that in so many ways. It's both beautiful and honor but it can be very isolating [dog barks].
GRAHAM LUSTIG: That's a good question. And I think that if you transport back to the Dutch National Ballet, which Choo-San a dancer, and I was a dancer, too. I joined the Dutch National Ballet, and he was already in the company. He's about five years older than me. And, excuse me, excuse me, Scooter place, Scooter place. That's my little dog. So, so the interesting thing about Dutch National Ballet, big European company, 85 dancers, based in Amsterdam, in Holland. It was a very diverse company. We had nationals from all over the world, and from Mexico, from Spain, from France, from Eastern Europe, from Suriname, from Indonesia. So it's a very, it was a multiracial company. And the truth of the matter is back in the 1970s, we weren't talking about that. No one was looking at, you know, how many soloists are, you know, BIPOC. It was just you had talent, you were, Choo-San was cast in ballets, but never in a pejorative fashion. He was tall, but very thin. He had a very narrow rib cage, very narrow hips. He had long thin legs, long, thin arms. And when choreographers worked with him, they, they used his unique physique. He had the angles in his body to advantage to show off and are what the amazing way that he would move, the unique way that he would move. And so I'd never heard Choo-San say, oh, I'm a lonely, I'm the only Singaporean choreographer working in Ballet. It was, it just didn't ever come forwards. I can say if I if I may that I, we were roommates. We were never, we never had a relationship but I loved him deeply, just like a really like best buddy. And even though he left Dutch National early because he had a back injury. He went to, he was invited to go to Washington to become the resident choreographer with Washington Ballet by Mary Day who was the artistic director. We stayed in close touch. I would come I had quite generous summer breaks, usually six weeks. So I would come to America stay with him, either in Washington either in New York. We do some travel around the states came to San Francisco. So I followed his career and when the Paris Opera Ballet, did a piece and I could get there I was there for the premier, etc. So we we stayed pretty closely connected until he passed away. And I think, you know, if Choo-San had lived, he had been invited by Ben Stevenson to become the resident choreographer at the Houston Ballet. I think if you accepted that offer, he probably in time, when Mr. Stevenson would retire, he might have become the director of the Houston Ballet. His, he was already working at an international level before he passed away. And again, I don't think people I don't think Mikhail Baryshnikov chose Choo-San because he wanted to be representative or you do the same as you. You know, I think that he saw this great talent that he wanted to celebrate and commission and you work for American Ballet Theatre. Dance Theatre of Harlem did his work. Of course Washington Ballet, Royal Swedish Ballet, Boston Ballet did a Romeo and Juliet he created. I mean, he was working at the top level of dance companies. And it’s a tragedy that he was taken so early and left a, he left a void behind him. But nobody truthfully has filled in these many years, since 1987.
JOSE SOLÍS: There is something really beautiful about watching him move and like there is a very architectural beauty to his body in a way that I'm sorry if this is, again, like trying to talk about dance. It's so difficult, but it's kind of like watching the Empire State moving, which is like both like imposing but also so graceful. And it's majestic but also so light and sort of ethereal. What was it like to see him move in the real world, you know? [Lustig: Right] What's it like in the in the gut, I guess?
GRAHAM LUSTIG: So as a dancer, you know, performing the Spanish dance in Swan Lake, right? Nothing extraordinary, not a role that was created for him, you know, or a Balanchine ballet. Choo-San was a mixture of things. As I mentioned, he was extremely skinny, long lines, but he was also powerfully strong. He loved the dynamic, he loved dynamic when he was teaching. He loved dynamic when he was choreographing, and he loved dynamic as a performer. And you could really see his musicality, his keen musicality expressed in nuances, you know, at every moment that he danced. So even though he was reed thin, he was strong ox, ox strong. You know that sort of, that combination of being very looking fragile, but having a lot of power. That was a very beguiling mixture to watch. He also, I suppose, I would say, was a real performer. He wasn't on stage, trying to be adored by the audience, he was on stage, to be himself, to be strong, to be to present who he wanted to be in a very unique and authentic fashion. And again, that came out more in the choreography that was created for him by the Dutch choreographers. So that was, I mean, it's hard to put into words, isn't it? How someone dances, and I'm also remembering this from a very long time ago, when I was in my 20s. But this, these are the things that have been left behind. And that is the traces that stay there. He also had a sense of fun, you know, of course, about him too, so he could be silly and foolish and light. You know, it wasn't always the strong drama that I'm trying to describe, describe here. There's a sense of lightness about the work.
JOSE SOLÍS: That's very important. And there's a playfulness to it as well. Yes, I am sure that many people have asked this, and many people have noticed this, but you know, like, it was so interesting to see that he was in biochemistry that he studied, right? [Lustig: Yes, indeed] You know, like, you see the pieces that he choreographed and there's almost like, they have been distilled, almost like a scientist [Lustig: Yes, yes] using a microscope, right? The movement is distilled to its essence. Did he ever talk about what it had been like to go to, have a degree in actual biochemistry? That’s wild.
GRAHAM LUSTIG: He spoke about it because his, he couldn't become, from his parents, he was not allowed to become a dancer unless he got the degree first. So they made him go through that. Now, you know that he comes from a dancing dynasty, right? His, Choo Chiat, his older brother, then Soonee, sister, then Soo Khim, and Choo-San was the last. But all four of them danced. And, so I think that my own observation is that when Choo-San was making work, like doing a workshop piece, like Impressions Pass, he made a trio in in Holland before he went to America. And I watched, I was in the studio watching him create that every day. This was more, this was just a more spiritual, poetic, lyrical piece. But as his confidence grew, as a choreographer, as his, he became more essential to himself, an essence of himself in the same way that you can describe how a chemist might work down to the, you know, the, the chemical components behind something. I feel like, you know, the more that he, he, for instance, he made Birds of Paradise to the Ginastera Harp Concerto with very idiosyncratic arm movements, especially for the women, which took them, you know, some people would say it was, you know, his Chinese background. I'm not so sure. I see it more as his essential self. And then, you know, he did Unknown Territory, as well. And these works, I think, because, were the most secure works of his expression, of his of his own authentic, I can’t say it, authenticity and his own, yeah, so how he want how he felt about movement. But of course, you know, he had the mathematician’s mind because of the way, the intricate ways that he could create, using canon in different groups that would somehow rather like a kaleidoscope turn into something else in front of you. And you just enjoyed these patterns unfol-unfolding you know.
JOSE SOLÍS: I was born in 1986, so part of why I'm doing this is like Phil, you know, there's so many people that I wish I could have met and I could have known and I'm trying to just like [Lustig: Yes] so this is a small part of keeping them alive. So thank you [Lustig: Yes, you are welcome].I appreciate this so much.
GRAHAM LUSTIG: I hope, I hope I didn't sound too sentimental. I tried to be, tried to balance, you know, it's easy to fall into sentimentality. But we were really close. You know, I mean, like, brothers, we did everything. We were out together, we were out the clubs together, you understand? I mean, we lived a good life.
OUTRO: How People Move People, is brought to you by The National Center of Choreography at The University of Akron, or NCCAkron. This podcast is produced by Jennifer Edwards, James Sleeman is our editor, theme music by Ellis Rovin, transcription by Arushi Signh, cover art by Micah Kraus. I’m Eduardo Vilaro, Artistic Director and CEO of Ballet Hispanico, and a NCCAkron Board Member. Special thanks to The John S. and James L. Knight Foundation for their continued support of NCCAkron programming like this. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for How People Move People.